Reid Hoffman challenges your thinking on AI, governance, and politics
The ERic RIES Show
Curated conversations
At the Long-Term Stock Exchange, we are dedicated to creating a world where businesses are empowered to achieve lasting impact and long-term prosperity.
To foster meaningful conversations, we curate conversations from an ecosystem of leaders, entrepreneurs, and visionaries.
The Eric Ries Show, a podcast produced by Founder and Chair of LTSE Services, Eric Ries, reflects our mission.
The show features thought-provoking conversations with world-class technologists, thought leaders, executives, and others who are working to create a new ecosystem of organizations committed to growth with purpose.
To foster meaningful conversations, we curate conversations from an ecosystem of leaders, entrepreneurs, and visionaries.
The Eric Ries Show, a podcast produced by Founder and Chair of LTSE Services, Eric Ries, reflects our mission.
The show features thought-provoking conversations with world-class technologists, thought leaders, executives, and others who are working to create a new ecosystem of organizations committed to growth with purpose.
Disclaimer: Information contained in this podcast was obtained in part from publicly available sources (including the Eric Ries Show) and not independently verified. The Long-Term Stock Exchange and its affiliated companies do not make any representations or warranties, express or implied, as to the accuracy or completeness of the information and do not sponsor, approve, or endorse any of the content herein, all of which is presented solely for informational and educational purposes. Nothing herein constitutes an offer to sell, a solicitation to buy any security, or a recommendation of any security or trading practice.
Some portions of the podcast may have been edited for the purpose of length or clarity.
From the Eric Ries Show:
The playbook for fixing toxic culture, pointless friction, and broken systems | Bob Sutton (Stanford, NYT bestselling author)
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In this episode of The Eric Ries Show , I’m joined by Bob Sutton, organizational psychologist and New York Times bestselling author of several influential books on leadership, behavior, and workplace culture, including his latest: The Friction Project.
We explore insights from across his body of work, including real-world examples of large organizations that have figured out how to operate more effectively and ethically—despite the inherent messiness of human systems.
We discuss:
• Ideas from The Knowing-Doing Gap , including the importance of psychological safety and a breakdown of “the smart talk trap”
• Why even the best-run companies are still flawed
• The surprising number of companies owned by private foundations, including Hershey Chocolate and Ikea
• How well-run organizations resist management fads while staying open to real innovation
• A story from Tim Cook about critical thinking in HR—and the cost of over-hiring
• “Addition sickness”: what happens when too many people work on a problem
• Strategies for removing friction
• The “No Asshole Rule”: why toxic leaders damage performance and morale
• The best founders strike the right balance between confidence and humility
• And much more!
—
Brought to you by:
• Ahrefs – Get instant website traffic insights, without the noise. Learn more.
—
Where to find Bob Sutton:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobsutton1/
• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/bobsutton.net
• Website: https://bobsutton.net/
—
Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter: https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast: https://ericriesshow.com/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow
—
In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(01:45) Insights from The Knowing Doing Gap
(09:29) How Becky Margiotta rewarded the doers of her 100,000 homes project
(12:24) An explanation of why every organization is flawed
(21:32) A case for still trying to improve the way companies are run
(26:03) How larger organizations always do things worse—some worse than others
(27:58) A case of organizational improvement: The California Department of Motor Vehicles
(29:58) Companies owned by private foundations and other unique models
(33:52) Lessons from Tim Cook around thinking critically about hiring
(36:26) Addition sickness
(39:58) Strategies for removing friction and adding good friction
(46:42) Simple practices that work
(49:50) The ‘no asshole’ rule
(52:32) The pitfalls of holacracy and an explanation of ‘stagegate’
(57:18) Why founders sometimes need to step back after scaling
(1:01:09) Advice for founders who want to stay CEOs and operate in founder mode
(1:04:40) The importance of ‘torchbearers’ and resisting pressures for short-term gains
(1:08:30) A case for doing things the right way, even if you don’t have to
(1:11:05) How corruption eventually degrades an organization
(1:18:03) Lightning round
—
Referenced:
- The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't: https://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Rule-Civilized-Workplace-Surviving/dp/0446698202
- The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action: https://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Doing-Gap-Companies-Knowledge-Action/dp/1578511240/
- The Friction Project: How Smart Leaders Make the Right Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder: https://www.amazon.com/Friction-Project-Leaders-Things-Easier/dp/1250284414/
- McKinsey Consulting: https://www.mckinsey.com/
- Jeffrey Pfeffer’s website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/
- Facts about Google’s acquisition of Motorola: https://www.google.com/press/motorola/
- Apollo 11: https://www.nasa.gov/mission/apollo-11/
- Becky Margiotta on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/becky-margiotta/
- The 100,000 Homes Campaign: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/100000-homes-campaign
- Adam Grant’s website: https://adamgrant.net/
- Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Overcoming-Unseen-Inspiration/dp/0812993012
- Ed Catmull on X: https://x.com/edcatmull
- Papal conclave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave
- Scaling Up Excellence: Getting to More Without Settling for Less: https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-Up-Excellence-Getting-Settling/dp/0385347022
- Huggy Rao’s website: https://huggyrao.com/
- Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
- Google: https://about.google/
- Meta: https://www.meta.com/
- Chris Cox on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-cox-2896b841/
- Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652/
- DOGE: https://doge.gov/
- Steve Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenpgordon/
- Alibaba: https://www.alibaba.com/
- Grundfos: https://www.grundfos.com/
- Hershey: https://www.thehersheycompany.com/
- Novo Nordisk: https://www.novonordisk-us.com/
- Bosch: https://www.bosch.com/
- Automattic: https://automattic.com/
- Costco: https://www.costco.com/
- Tim Cook on X: https://x.com/tim_cook
- Mythical Man-Month, The: Essays on Software Engineering:https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959
- Jon Levin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/president-jon-levin/
- Design Thinking: Understanding how designers think and work: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Thinking-Understanding-designers-think/dp/1350305065
- The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898/
- George Carlin talks about stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac
- Asana: https://asana.com/
- Andy Miller on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andymiller44/
- Civilla: https://civilla.org/
- Project Re:form: https://civilla.org/work/project-reform
- Howard Schultz on X: https://x.com/howardschultz
- Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/
- Steve Ballmer on X: https://x.com/steven_ballmer
- Amy Coleman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amycoleman19/
- Dr. Marc Gillinov: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff/2350-a-marc-gillinov
- Founder mode: https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html
- Brian Chesky on X: https://x.com/bchesky
- Reid Hoffman challenges your thinking on AI, governance, and politics: https://www.ericriesshow.com/reid-hoffman/
- AG Lafley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ag-lafley-2381b3201/
- Toby Cosgrove on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toby-cosgrove-76094158/
- Jeff Bezos on X: https://x.com/jeffbezos
- Todd Park on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-park-3232573/
- McDonald’s: https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/corpmcd/home.html
- Walmart: https://corporate.walmart.com/
- Devoted Health: https://www.devoted.com/
- Clinical Software and Bad Decisions: The “Practice Fusion” Settlement and Its Implications: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9233625/
- Chip Heath on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chipheath/
- 17 things I believe: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bobsutton1_17-things-i-believe-circa-2023-activity-7069320215620194305-jdos/
- David Kelley: https://dschool.stanford.edu/directory/david-kelley
- Why Big Teams Suck: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140303152358-15893932-why-big-teams-suck/
- Karl Weick: https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/people/emeriti-faculty/karlw.html
—
Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Show Notes
In this episode of The Eric Ries Show , I’m joined by Bob Sutton, organizational psychologist and New York Times bestselling author of several influential books on leadership, behavior, and workplace culture, including his latest: The Friction Project.
We explore insights from across his body of work, including real-world examples of large organizations that have figured out how to operate more effectively and ethically—despite the inherent messiness of human systems.
We discuss:
• Ideas from The Knowing-Doing Gap , including the importance of psychological safety and a breakdown of “the smart talk trap”
• Why even the best-run companies are still flawed
• The surprising number of companies owned by private foundations, including Hershey Chocolate and Ikea
• How well-run organizations resist management fads while staying open to real innovation
• A story from Tim Cook about critical thinking in HR—and the cost of over-hiring
• “Addition sickness”: what happens when too many people work on a problem
• Strategies for removing friction
• The “No Asshole Rule”: why toxic leaders damage performance and morale
• The best founders strike the right balance between confidence and humility
• And much more!
—
Brought to you by:
• Ahrefs – Get instant website traffic insights, without the noise. Learn more.
—
Where to find Bob Sutton:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobsutton1/
• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/bobsutton.net
• Website: https://bobsutton.net/
—
Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter: https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast: https://ericriesshow.com/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow
—
In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(01:45) Insights from The Knowing Doing Gap
(09:29) How Becky Margiotta rewarded the doers of her 100,000 homes project
(12:24) An explanation of why every organization is flawed
(21:32) A case for still trying to improve the way companies are run
(26:03) How larger organizations always do things worse—some worse than others
(27:58) A case of organizational improvement: The California Department of Motor Vehicles
(29:58) Companies owned by private foundations and other unique models
(33:52) Lessons from Tim Cook around thinking critically about hiring
(36:26) Addition sickness
(39:58) Strategies for removing friction and adding good friction
(46:42) Simple practices that work
(49:50) The ‘no asshole’ rule
(52:32) The pitfalls of holacracy and an explanation of ‘stagegate’
(57:18) Why founders sometimes need to step back after scaling
(1:01:09) Advice for founders who want to stay CEOs and operate in founder mode
(1:04:40) The importance of ‘torchbearers’ and resisting pressures for short-term gains
(1:08:30) A case for doing things the right way, even if you don’t have to
(1:11:05) How corruption eventually degrades an organization
(1:18:03) Lightning round
—
Referenced:
- The No Asshole Rule: Building a Civilized Workplace and Surviving One That Isn't: https://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Rule-Civilized-Workplace-Surviving/dp/0446698202
- The Knowing-Doing Gap: How Smart Companies Turn Knowledge into Action: https://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Doing-Gap-Companies-Knowledge-Action/dp/1578511240/
- The Friction Project: How Smart Leaders Make the Right Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder: https://www.amazon.com/Friction-Project-Leaders-Things-Easier/dp/1250284414/
- McKinsey Consulting: https://www.mckinsey.com/
- Jeffrey Pfeffer’s website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/
- Facts about Google’s acquisition of Motorola: https://www.google.com/press/motorola/
- Apollo 11: https://www.nasa.gov/mission/apollo-11/
- Becky Margiotta on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/becky-margiotta/
- The 100,000 Homes Campaign: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/100000-homes-campaign
- Adam Grant’s website: https://adamgrant.net/
- Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Overcoming-Unseen-Inspiration/dp/0812993012
- Ed Catmull on X: https://x.com/edcatmull
- Papal conclave: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave
- Scaling Up Excellence: Getting to More Without Settling for Less: https://www.amazon.com/Scaling-Up-Excellence-Getting-Settling/dp/0385347022
- Huggy Rao’s website: https://huggyrao.com/
- Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
- Google: https://about.google/
- Meta: https://www.meta.com/
- Chris Cox on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-cox-2896b841/
- Sheryl Sandberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheryl-sandberg-5126652/
- DOGE: https://doge.gov/
- Steve Gordon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevenpgordon/
- Alibaba: https://www.alibaba.com/
- Grundfos: https://www.grundfos.com/
- Hershey: https://www.thehersheycompany.com/
- Novo Nordisk: https://www.novonordisk-us.com/
- Bosch: https://www.bosch.com/
- Automattic: https://automattic.com/
- Costco: https://www.costco.com/
- Tim Cook on X: https://x.com/tim_cook
- Mythical Man-Month, The: Essays on Software Engineering:https://www.amazon.com/Mythical-Man-Month-Software-Engineering-Anniversary/dp/0201835959
- Jon Levin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/president-jon-levin/
- Design Thinking: Understanding how designers think and work: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Thinking-Understanding-designers-think/dp/1350305065
- The Lean Startup: How Today's Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0307887898/
- George Carlin talks about stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvgN5gCuLac
- Asana: https://asana.com/
- Andy Miller on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andymiller44/
- Civilla: https://civilla.org/
- Project Re:form: https://civilla.org/work/project-reform
- Howard Schultz on X: https://x.com/howardschultz
- Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/
- Steve Ballmer on X: https://x.com/steven_ballmer
- Amy Coleman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amycoleman19/
- Dr. Marc Gillinov: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff/2350-a-marc-gillinov
- Founder mode: https://paulgraham.com/foundermode.html
- Brian Chesky on X: https://x.com/bchesky
- Reid Hoffman challenges your thinking on AI, governance, and politics: https://www.ericriesshow.com/reid-hoffman/
- AG Lafley on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ag-lafley-2381b3201/
- Toby Cosgrove on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toby-cosgrove-76094158/
- Jeff Bezos on X: https://x.com/jeffbezos
- Todd Park on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-park-3232573/
- McDonald’s: https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/corpmcd/home.html
- Walmart: https://corporate.walmart.com/
- Devoted Health: https://www.devoted.com/
- Clinical Software and Bad Decisions: The “Practice Fusion” Settlement and Its Implications: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9233625/
- Chip Heath on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chipheath/
- 17 things I believe: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/bobsutton1_17-things-i-believe-circa-2023-activity-7069320215620194305-jdos/
- David Kelley: https://dschool.stanford.edu/directory/david-kelley
- Why Big Teams Suck: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140303152358-15893932-why-big-teams-suck/
- Karl Weick: https://lsa.umich.edu/psych/people/emeriti-faculty/karlw.html
—
Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Disclaimer
The information is provided for informational and educational purposes only, and nothing contained herein should be construed as investment advice, either on behalf of a particular security or an overall investment strategy. Information about the company is provided by the company, or comes from the companies’ public filings and is not independently verified by LTSE. Neither LTSE nor any of its affiliates makes any recommendation to buy or sell any security or any representation about the financial condition of any company. Statements regarding LTSE-listed companies are not guarantees of future performance. Actual results may differ materially from those expressed or implied. Past performance is not indicative of future results. Investors should undertake their own due diligence and carefully evaluate companies before investing. Advice from a securities professional is strongly advised.
Curated Conversations
