Curated conversations
To foster meaningful conversations, we curate conversations from an ecosystem of leaders, entrepreneurs, and visionaries.
The Eric Ries Show, a podcast produced by Founder and Chair of LTSE Services, Eric Ries, reflects our mission.
The show features thought-provoking conversations with world-class technologists, thought leaders, executives, and others who are working to create a new ecosystem of organizations committed to growth with purpose.
From the Eric Ries Show:
How to move beyond bureaucracy, not waste talent, and innovate faster | Michele Zanini & Gary Hamel
Bureaucracy was once a breakthrough. Today, it’s become a costly drag on innovation, human potential, and business impact. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini, authors of Humanocracy, to explore how organizations can move beyond outdated management models and unlock true human thriving.
Hamel and Zanini have spent years researching and advising some of the world’s most forward-thinking companies. Together, we make the case for replacing top-down control with systems that maximize contribution, creativity, and ownership at every level.
We dive into how to rethink management from first principles, why employee engagement is at historic lows, and what leaders can do to build organizations that unlock the full potential of their people.
—
Where to find Gary Hamel:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garyhamel/
• Website: https://www.garyhamel.com/
Where to find Michele Zanini:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelezanini/
• X: https://x.com/michelezanini
• Website: https://www.michelezanini.com/
—
Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter:https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast:https://ericriesshow.com/
—
In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(02:02) The importance of human-invented management concepts
(04:20) How Gary came up with core competencies
(07:15) The benefits of bureaucracy (a brief history of labor and management)
(13:00) The General Motors near-bankruptcy story
(15:00) Why management is the greatest human concept, but due for reinvention
(23:20) Outlier companies with unconventional structures
(24:00) Why management needs new paradigms and principles
(29:55) The lost opportunity of Mary Parker Follett’s management philosophy
(35:45) The dominance of ‘left-brained’ leadership in management philosophy
(38:52) Core ideas behind Humanocracy
(55:44) Tips for building healthy, efficient organizations
(1:03:36) The overlooked lessons from outlier companies like Vanguard
(1:12:21) What Harvard Law’s startup study reveals about founder control
(1:15:55) Why unlocking human potential is a CEO’s core mission
(1:19:42) Advice for founders on avoiding the pitfalls of bureaucracy
(1:22:15) Why every great company is driven by a great purpose
(1:27:00) Examples of companies operating from first principles
(1:31:14) Why productivity matters, and how it’s linked with bureaucracy
—
- Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside Them: https://www.amazon.com/Humanocracy-Creating-Organizations-Amazing-People/dp/1633696022
- Delaware General Corporation Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_Law
- My Years with General Motors: https://www.amazon.com/Years-General-Motors-Alfred-Sloan/dp/0385042353
- Peter Drucker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker
- Warren Bennis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Bennis
- Douglas McGregor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_McGregor
- Mary Parker Follett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Parker_Follett
- W.L. Gore: https://www.gore.com/
- What Will Management Look Like in the Next 100 Years?: https://hbr.org/2022/09/what-will-management-look-like-in-the-next-100-years
- Ikea: https://www.ikea.com/
- Hershey: https://www.thehersheycompany.com/
- Mondragon: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com
- John Lewis Partnership: https://www.johnlewispartnership.co.uk/
- Grundfos: https://www.grundfos.com/
- John Locke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke
- Thomas Kuhn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn
- Frederick Winslow Taylor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor
- Rowntree’s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowntree%27s
- Employee engagement: https://www.gallup.com/394373/indicator-employee-engagement.aspx
- Factors Affecting Employees’ Problem-Solving Skills in Technology-Rich Environments in Japan and Korea: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343989675_Factors_Affecting_Employees'_Problem-Solving_Skills_in_Technology-Rich_Environments_in_Japan_and_Korea
- The real reason the Death Star blew up: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/michelezanini_management-humanocracy-starwars-activity-7354120178437136384-ixwT?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAABf37PYBgozFf00ihr4fkqjRtMnFajHkQ5E
- Vanguard: https://investor.vanguard.com/
- REI: https://www.rei.com/
- John Bogle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bogle
- Nucor: https://nucor.com/
- Svenska Handelsbanken: https://www.handelsbanken.se/
- Entrepreneurship & Startups: https://journals.law.harvard.edu/hblr/entrepreneurship-startups/
- Linus Torvalds on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linustorvalds/
- The Oracle Of Silicon Valley Shares How to Create More Value Than You Capture | Tim O’Reilly: https://www.ericriesshow.com/tim-oreilly/
- He turned down $11 billion, here’s why | Craig Newmark (Craigslist Founder): https://www.ericriesshow.com/craig-newmark-craigslist/
- The biggest problem with capitalism? Not enough capitalists: https://fortune.com/2020/11/21/capitalism-entrepreneurship-economic-inequality-us-bureaucracy/
- Buurtzorg: https://www.buurtzorg.com/
- Ken Iverson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._Kenneth_Iverson
- Roche: https://www.roche.com/
—
Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Bureaucracy was once a breakthrough. Today, it’s become a costly drag on innovation, human potential, and business impact. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini, authors of Humanocracy, to explore how organizations can move beyond outdated management models and unlock true human thriving.
Hamel and Zanini have spent years researching and advising some of the world’s most forward-thinking companies. Together, we make the case for replacing top-down control with systems that maximize contribution, creativity, and ownership at every level.
We dive into how to rethink management from first principles, why employee engagement is at historic lows, and what leaders can do to build organizations that unlock the full potential of their people.
—
Where to find Gary Hamel:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garyhamel/
• Website: https://www.garyhamel.com/
Where to find Michele Zanini:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelezanini/
• X: https://x.com/michelezanini
• Website: https://www.michelezanini.com/
—
Where to find Eric:
• Newsletter:https://ericries.carrd.co/
• Podcast:https://ericriesshow.com/
—
In This Episode We Cover:
(00:00) Intro
(02:02) The importance of human-invented management concepts
(04:20) How Gary came up with core competencies
(07:15) The benefits of bureaucracy (a brief history of labor and management)
(13:00) The General Motors near-bankruptcy story
(15:00) Why management is the greatest human concept, but due for reinvention
(23:20) Outlier companies with unconventional structures
(24:00) Why management needs new paradigms and principles
(29:55) The lost opportunity of Mary Parker Follett’s management philosophy
(35:45) The dominance of ‘left-brained’ leadership in management philosophy
(38:52) Core ideas behind Humanocracy
(55:44) Tips for building healthy, efficient organizations
(1:03:36) The overlooked lessons from outlier companies like Vanguard
(1:12:21) What Harvard Law’s startup study reveals about founder control
(1:15:55) Why unlocking human potential is a CEO’s core mission
(1:19:42) Advice for founders on avoiding the pitfalls of bureaucracy
(1:22:15) Why every great company is driven by a great purpose
(1:27:00) Examples of companies operating from first principles
(1:31:14) Why productivity matters, and how it’s linked with bureaucracy
—
- Humanocracy: Creating Organizations as Amazing as the People Inside Them: https://www.amazon.com/Humanocracy-Creating-Organizations-Amazing-People/dp/1633696022
- Delaware General Corporation Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delaware_General_Corporation_Law
- My Years with General Motors: https://www.amazon.com/Years-General-Motors-Alfred-Sloan/dp/0385042353
- Peter Drucker: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker
- Warren Bennis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Bennis
- Douglas McGregor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_McGregor
- Mary Parker Follett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Parker_Follett
- W.L. Gore: https://www.gore.com/
- What Will Management Look Like in the Next 100 Years?: https://hbr.org/2022/09/what-will-management-look-like-in-the-next-100-years
- Ikea: https://www.ikea.com/
- Hershey: https://www.thehersheycompany.com/
- Mondragon: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com
- John Lewis Partnership: https://www.johnlewispartnership.co.uk/
- Grundfos: https://www.grundfos.com/
- John Locke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke
- Thomas Kuhn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn
- Frederick Winslow Taylor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Winslow_Taylor
- Rowntree’s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowntree%27s
- Employee engagement: https://www.gallup.com/394373/indicator-employee-engagement.aspx
- Factors Affecting Employees’ Problem-Solving Skills in Technology-Rich Environments in Japan and Korea: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343989675_Factors_Affecting_Employees'_Problem-Solving_Skills_in_Technology-Rich_Environments_in_Japan_and_Korea
- The real reason the Death Star blew up: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/michelezanini_management-humanocracy-starwars-activity-7354120178437136384-ixwT?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAABf37PYBgozFf00ihr4fkqjRtMnFajHkQ5E
- Vanguard: https://investor.vanguard.com/
- REI: https://www.rei.com/
- John Bogle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Bogle
- Nucor: https://nucor.com/
- Svenska Handelsbanken: https://www.handelsbanken.se/
- Entrepreneurship & Startups: https://journals.law.harvard.edu/hblr/entrepreneurship-startups/
- Linus Torvalds on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linustorvalds/
- The Oracle Of Silicon Valley Shares How to Create More Value Than You Capture | Tim O’Reilly: https://www.ericriesshow.com/tim-oreilly/
- He turned down $11 billion, here’s why | Craig Newmark (Craigslist Founder): https://www.ericriesshow.com/craig-newmark-craigslist/
- The biggest problem with capitalism? Not enough capitalists: https://fortune.com/2020/11/21/capitalism-entrepreneurship-economic-inequality-us-bureaucracy/
- Buurtzorg: https://www.buurtzorg.com/
- Ken Iverson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._Kenneth_Iverson
- Roche: https://www.roche.com/
—
Production and marketing by Pen Name.
Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Disclaimer
The information is provided for informational and educational purposes only, and nothing contained herein should be construed as investment advice, either on behalf of a particular security or an overall investment strategy. Information about the company is provided by the company, or comes from the companies’ public filings and is not independently verified by LTSE. Neither LTSE nor any of its affiliates makes any recommendation to buy or sell any security or any representation about the financial condition of any company. Statements regarding LTSE-listed companies are not guarantees of future performance. Actual results may differ materially from those expressed or implied. Past performance is not indicative of future results. Investors should undertake their own due diligence and carefully evaluate companies before investing. Advice from a securities professional is strongly advised.